discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Budd, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. Budd Member

    discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    I am a born-again Christian and attend an large evangelical church that offers, among the various educational classes presented, an eight-week series on Cults. With all the reading I've done over the years I figure I know "more than the average bear" about Scientology and would like to present a one-hour session on its beliefs, to educate our members so they are more aware of what is out there so that they can be ready when they are confronted with the issue themselves.

    - Has anyone else here done such a thing?
    - Have you or your church then been harassed, threatened, or sued?
    - Do you have any advice on what to say or not to say?

    And on a separate thought, how do we know that Scilons don't come here and learn all our plans, and then use that against us?

    I am serious. Thank you for a serious answer.
  2. Anon-ymous Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Not sure about the main questions (not religious so not much help there), but yes, OSA do lurk these forums, which is why it is important to stay anonymous.
  3. subgenius Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    The $cilons are here. We don't care, they FAIL at everything. The truth is the truth and it shall set you free.
    No specific advice, google is your friend.
    $cilons are not good for your religion.
    Do your best to protect and educate your members.
    All religions including Christianity are just implants that ocurred in OTIII.
  4. Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Scilons do read this board and probably whatever local anon boards you use as well. Fuck 'em, you have a right to say what you want and anyone going to a series of lectures about cults is not the scilons' target market anyway so I doubt they'll give you any trouble.
  5. Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Since it's an evangelical church, you can use plenty of Hubbard's anti-Christian material. Some of his quotes can be found on Scientology Sound Bytes and on YouTube and whatnot. (Maybe playing Hubbard's own voice recording of "There was no Christ" would be pretty powerful to your audience.)

    There's also a quick set of bullet-point reasons why Scientology is bad over at our Chicago Anonymous site. Some of them aren't too well-written (yet), but just in case you want some inspiration.
  6. hotdog57 Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    it,s just a promo stunt,
  7. MarcabEmpress Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    My thoughts for evangelical and fundamentalist Christian churches:

    One thing that is very important to point out is that their head of PR, Karen Pouw said to a reporter "so we think Jesus is a figment of the imagination, so what?" and the the religons founder lectured that Christ is an "implant" and theat when some people die, their souls go to Mars ot be reprogrammed.

    Their appearance of "doing good" (literacy programs, antidrugs etc) is all a cover for recruitment--and while Christian, Jewish and Islamic groups (and even Wiccans, Druids, etc), do missionary and outreach, they do not disguise themselves, they do not lie about who they are. Other faiths do not (note my use of language here, which is designed specifically for the Scripture-based) seduce like the serpent.

    Scientology lures in people with claims of otherworldy powers like being able to "exteriorize" (astral projection) and teaches its members to mentally connect to entities (body thetans) attached to their body (basiclaly run the Xenu story past your congregation), in LRH's voice..there is no way that can be denied.

    No other faith withholds their Creation story (Genesis for the Jews Christians) until members have paid thousands of dollars, and that Creation story is the Xenu story.

    Child labor
    Forced labor
    Billion year contract

    Explain the emeter and how as you progress up the levels it used to talk to the dead space lice attached to your body

    Despite claims to contrary, Scientology is not compatible with all religions--how can you be a Christian and a member of a group that says Christ was an "implant" and does not exist, that He is "every mna" and not a real person, as taught by Christian churches.

    And in there some where dont forget to mention that Scientology as a tax exempt chartable religious organization receives preferential treatment form the IRS that outstrips the benefits offered every churchin the United States, in violation of the "establishment of religion" clause in the Constitution.

  8. LilDebbie Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    while it's tempting just to harp on about christ being an implanted engram as part of R6, what would make for more interesting discussion is how the brainwashing process works from start to crazy.
  9. Anonyymous77 Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    thats a good idea you have. the only danger would be that some scientologists may visit your seminar and report it. be careful who you let in lol. and as for what to say and what not to say, inform them of the scientologists beliefs such as the disconnect policy, xenu, etc. also inform them about mark bunker aka wise beard man. also, people that have been hurt by scientology such as lisa mcpherson, Josephus Havenith, and Noah Antrim Lottick.
  10. Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    I've thought about preparing a PowerPoint-style presentation for something like this. A couple of years ago, my church had a Sunday School class comparing different religions, with different people teaching on the different religions, usually based on personal experience - for example, a lady who had done missionary work in Haiti taught the section on Voodoo.

    After I started getting involved with Chanology, I spoke to a member of our church leadership, offering to teach a Scientology section if they did a similar class again. I admit this topic may motivate me to get off my butt and start working on the presentation. Even if I never actually present it myself at church, it may be a useful resource for other Christanons. I'll at least give a couple of evenings and see if I can make a decent start.
  11. anon1957 Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    I think the fact that your church is a large one (is it mega-sized, even?) will protect you from OSA. I can't imagine they would be stupid enough (although they can be pretty bone-headed) to harass a large church.

    In addition to everything that Marcab Empress suggested, I would also draw attention to the pseudo-Christian symbolism used by the cult: the faux-cross (which seems to have been inspired by Aleister Crowley) and the fact that they call themselves a "church" -- not a temple/synagogue (jewish) or mosque/masjid (islam). A Church!!! Also that they use christian collars when they need to face the media and look like clerics.

    Also read Larry Brennan's affidavit (former member who witnessed/participated in some of the process) on how they set up their pyramid of corporatation as a form of religious cloaking.

    The fact is that they are not a religion at all, just a criminal scam that disguises itself as a religion so that its business "practices" are largely beyond legal scrutiny, as well as the benefits of being a 501 (c) (3). Esp check out how they use Narconon, Applied Study Technology and the CCHR to recruit and to cloak their various scams.

    Good luck and I hope you report back with how your congregation responds to your lecture.
  12. Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    This is relevant to my interests

    /r/ reports, etc from OP
  13. subgenius Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    This is everything you need and from a bible site.
    Although it is Christian, I find the sources to be valid and reputable, and the over all tone of the site is quite fair and reasonable.
    Church of Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard) OTiii
    Your welcome.
    Edit: its a flippin great site and you will find a recording of LRH saying "there was no Christ"
  14. AlphOhm Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Actually if you look at the "time" presented, it is "relatively recent". It is not a "Creation Story".


  15. AnonymooseDK Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    It's a good thing you are doing keep up the good work:)
  16. moarxenu Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    This is correct. I think it is more proper to use the term "Foundation myth" since is the story that grounds Scientology's anthropology and soteriology.

    The more exact equivalent is in Genesis but it is the Jewish (and Christian ) story of the garden of Eden. Eve ate the apple and mankind was expelled from the garden of Eden and condemned to the woes of the human condition.
  17. Richard Rolle Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Sometimes it's also helpful to talk about characteristics of cults, and that by any standard Scientology matches virtually all of the criteria...

    For an Evangelical audience, you'll already have them onside with the idea of pursuing false or other gods -1st Commandment language comes in really handy there. However, Scientology is not so much worshipping other Gods... it got its start as a "Knowledge cult" and then opted to take on the mantle of religious trappings. It shares a lot in common with the pure form of Gnosticism (secret knowledge, different levels of the spirit)... however, I suspect that your audience is probably not up on ancient Gnostic practice. Yes, Hubbard wasn't terribly original, surprise, surprise...

    What could also work is how Scientology took on religious trappings to fend off the government once it was determined that e-meters and auditing had no basis in scientific fact. They swiped the cross and corrupted it, their leadership began using "Rev." in front of their names, wearing clerical collars, and calling themselves ministers. Ironic that they sue everyone else for copyright violations, and yet ALL of their trappings are yanked right from Christian practice. <grumble> Sorry, started to rant there...

    Of course, there's also the abuses that are so widely known...
  18. AlphOhm Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Aye, good comparison.


  19. Plups Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Here is a link to a discussion about how Scientology has occultic themes. I've posted there about the use of the word "theta" implying that people are gods. Caroline Letkeman (married to Gerry Armstrong) replied with a quotation from Hubbard to that effect: Operation Clambake Message Board :: View topic - Scientoloccult Basics

    The quotation is very important, because it shows that Hubbard's "Homo Novis" (sic) is very different to being "born again":

    Of course, this is the ultimate heresy, and is what brought Lucifer down and is the temptation the serpent used with Eve.
  20. AlphOhm Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    And which led early Paulists, er um "Christians" to slaughter the Christian Gnostics.


  21. LilDebbie Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    In case anyone's curious, $cientology's Creation Myth is called Incident I and I do believe it is part of OT III.
  22. widecat2 Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Not to put any pressure on the OP, but would something like this possibly be of interest to other evangelical churches? I know there are companies that produce church educational materials for Sunday school classes and such, probably for profit - could a well-designed open source presentation, ready to go, make an appealing 'gift' to youth or educational ministers, etc.?

    ETA OP, I don't know if this site is in agreement with your church, but some of the points made here might provide useful jumping off points for your discussion.
  23. Anon_1HG Member

  24. Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    It would be of intense interest not only to evangelical Christians, but to people of all faiths. An well-produced information packet sent to all the central bodies of these faiths would raise awareness of what's going on to a frenzy. Dox from the German government would be both a good source and an excellent part of this packet.
  25. Anon_1HG Member

  26. Donovan Cook Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    I was only intending to watch a few minutes as it's past my ummmm....whatcha call it.....anyway...I watched the whole damn thing and it was awesome. Completely held my attention (THAT'S the word I was looking for..) for the entire 12 minutes. Oozing with win!!!! Thanks for that ling.

    I'd like to know why a church is having a presentation on scientology...seems kinda weird....:hmm:
  27. ravenanon Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    TL DR coming up

    When ever I'm asked about the "what do sci believe in" questions it becomes a hard answer when I don't know a persons background. However, unlike the general public stopping you and asking you on the street you do know the background of your audience. That is a huge step forward!

    A summation of what I tell fellow Christians. (I'm sure you more than know this its just what I do in ten minutes)
    Basically most faiths have a God. Scientology is about buying your way into God status. They want to fly, never be sick, etc.. Not only is this against Christian beliefs, but it is also a system based on discrimination. The rich will be saved before the poor. Sci salvation is not free and unbiased. This can lead into how they treat groups as slaves, beliefs on minorities, etc..
    If I have time I do a brief discussion abt Hubbard's past with black magic and etc.. However, don't let the talk become focused on the founding fruit loops life. It is more important to hit on the beliefs that conflict with Christianity and well actually just being a compassionate human.
    Ultimately very few people walk into sci front door. The front groups at least need to mentioned. That is were there really money and new members are coming from.

    I like this website: :: escape :: helping families under scientology stress for those trying to get out.

    oh and don't forget:
    In their own words on the tax forms they declare themselves as the dominate faith.

    The Church of Spiritual Technology's Explanation to the IRS As To
    Why It Qualifies As a "Church" Described in Section 170(b)(1)(A)(i)."
    It was reprinted in the December 1993 (Vol. 8, No. 6) issue of The
    Exempt Organization Tax Review, a publication of Tax Analysts, Inc.

    The magazine gives as its source "Response to Final Series of IRS
    Questions Prior to Recognition of Exemption of CST Under Section
    501(c)(3) As a Church on October 1, 1993.

    Footnote 6: Although there is no policy or Scriptural mandate
    expressly requiring Scientologists to renounce other religious beliefs
    or membership in other churches, as a practical matter Scientologists
    are expected to and do become fully devoted to Scientology to the
    exclusion of other faiths. As Scientologists, they are required to
    look only to Scientology Scriptures for the answers to the fundamental
    questions of their existence and to seek enlightenment only from
    Scientology. Thus, a Scientologist who grew up in the Jewish faith who
    continues formal membership in his synagogue and attends services with
    his family violates no Scientology policy or tenet. On the other hand,
    such a person is not permitted to mix the practice of his former faith
    into his practice and understanding of Scientology so as to alter
    orthodox Scientology in any way.

    Please let us all know what happened after you give your talk. I'm very excited for you!
  28. Plups Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Because the evil cult wants to lure Christians into its web by telling lies about the two "religions" being compatible?
  29. AnonMB Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    There is also the opportunity to compare and contrast the opportunities for abuse within Christianity vs. Scientology.

    Yes it drudges up the crusades, witch burnings, protestant vs. catholic, inquisition history - but this can be easily argued away that these "Christians" were clearly not following the teachings of Christ. Look for related Gandhi quotes. Not following Christians vs. Scientology policy = massive difference.

    The whole no blindly accepting what is taught but investigate to ensure it is consistent with teachings (Christianity) vs. Scientology of you don't really understand a word until you look it up - making the penalty of questioning so tiresome and frustrating that you eventually stop questioning. Doubt is also not wrong in Christianity - there are plenty of examples of doubt - Thomas for instance vs. Scientology and Security Checks / PSP.

    Disconnection is taught in a MODERATE / FOR TIME / TIL YOU ARE STRONGER form within Christianity ... BUT it is not something that should be long term, perm., but rather to be used to break influences (drinking, swearing, smoking, etc.) of the people around you. Once you are strong enough, you are suppose to re-engage. Again, this isn't something across the board - nor something I personally agree with - especially because of the potential of it being used like Scientology does. Scientology uses disconnection to isolate and say that the person's problems are because of another. Christianity would teach that you are responsible for your own choices, while others can impact your life, your reaction is your responsibility.

    If you want to go radical .. Just google "God Hates Religion" or "The End of Religion" .. That type of teaching is much more consistent with going after the CoS and not the beliefs of Scientology.

    I would focus on how Scientology moves to isolate you - a key component of a cult / sect / fundamentalist religion.

    BE RESPECTFUL IN YOUR PRESENTATION. No naming calling, Co$, scilon talk. Proper terminology and only facts.
  30. Robert S Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    The presentation is part of a cults program, if I read the OP right.

    From a Christian perspective the comments about Christ and the use of the cross symbolism and the claims of compatibility are all of good use in your talk. But as far as I know evangelicals wouldn't exactly have a positive view of Fair Game, Disconnection, and the view of Hubbard as "Source".

    I'm sure Christians would be interested in hearing the way scientology directly comments on the Bible and Christ, but don't forget the real meat and potatoes; it's a scam.
  31. AnonZombie Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    While I agree with this to an extent, I think you should include that anti-christ stuff, too. Because then if they don't believe you about everything else, at least they won't fall for the "it's compatible with other religions" bullshit.
  32. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Tread softly...

    Encouraging theological disputes can have exciting, unintended, and unpleasant consequences - especially for the people who first stirred the pot.

    Not saying that's what you're trying to do or that you shouldn't spread the lulzy word, just thinking that you need to be really fucking careful.
  33. Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    As I understand it (and you'll have to find the 'docs' on this yourself, since I can't, or someone else here find them) the ecclesiastical head of the so-called 'church' of scientology, David Miscavige, has NOT taken part in the (also so-called) spiritual auditing process since the early 90s.

    To a committed and principled Christian this would be approximately equivalent to the head of their international church body not attending weekly church services for over a decade and a half.

    Some fucking 'church', some fucking spiritual church head.
  34. LilDebbie Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    the anti-christian stuff makes for a good lead-in that'll get the audience to pay attention. all i was saying is to give it short shrift. maybe start out the presentation with a cute little video that culminates with Elron's recorded voice saying, "there was no christ."
  35. Aveeno Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Has anyone invited churches to demonstrate with them as allies? Someone with my local cell proposed this, and I'd love to dedicate to the project. If you have, how did it work out? Do you have any tips?
  36. LilyBelle Member

    Re: discussing $cientology in an evangelical church

    Wanting to weigh in on this since I'm in a similar position to the OP. I've found just talking to people in my church openly about the issues helps a *lot*. I've had opportunities to bring up Anonymous a few times. I've also told them how much I didn't know until I started reading the information given to me.

    I found getting into different groups and giving them relevant info helps too. For instance, I tell the Sunday School teachers about School's Closed and why we're doing it. I tell my Mom (who leads a women's group at her church) about how they disconnect families, what happens with people who get pregnant in the Sea Org and how they treat children etc. Giving out website addresses liberally helps too.

    For Aveeno , I've thought about this myself with my local group of Anons (IL) and I'm not sure how it would work out. I did see a YouTube video of a protest (in DC I think) where a member of the clergy spoke. Maybe one of them can weigh in on that?

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