Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

If we're looking for an asylum in Savannah, St. Joseph?s Hospital History says that the city's first was opened in the 1950s

I can't find a location for St. John's Hall, but St. Joseph's/Candler has several locations near Drayton St. I imagine that if elron was an inmate, his family would be close by. Note that 1948 puts this during his marriage to Sara Northrup: you'd think she'd have mentioned it when she was suing him for spousal abuse.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

There is an Abraham Hyman Center in Savannah, age 101. Wife Bess E age 96, son Lawrence E (Larry) 56, daughter? Beth E age unknown. Google fails with last names that are common words though: just ask Joseph Intertubes.

edit: http://vlex.com/vid/20496309

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Using data supplied from whatwhat (above) and other Internet sources, it appears Dr. Abraham H. Center's widow, Bess E. Center, died at age 94 in Savannah Georgia on October 7, 2006.

Her surviving son Lawrence E. Center, approximate age 56, recently lived (and may still reside) in Fort Myers, Florida.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

A "Bessie Center" of Savannah, Georgia turns up as a donor to "Pinewood Retreat" Mental Health program in 2002-2004. She was buried at Savannah's Bonaventure Cemetery in 2006.

Re: Abraham Center

The rest of the info on him there says "Deceased".

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Well, we're learning a lot about Abraham Center, which is part of this path, and I applaud all of your research skills. I guess he was also an Army doctor, and then did some work with the Civilian Conservation Corps. I know that soon we will have interesting breakthroughs about L-Ron's days in the nuthouse! Could someone who has accounts at these places please cross-post to ARS, OCMB, Ex-Scilon Board etc.? Just in case there is something rattling around in the remote Georgia backwoods of someone's brainpan, and only needs a few sharp jolts to knock it loose!

Homerville, Georgia
Georgia P-52
History of the CCC CAMP Company 1413


On June 2, 1933, Company 1413 came into existence. Prior to or
sometime during the month of May of that year, a group of men connected with
the Army, together with others who were connected with the Forestry branch,
arrived in Homerville to ascertain whether or not a Civilian Conservation
Corps (C.C.C.) campsite should be located there. Their verdict proved to be
in the affirmative, so on May 25, Captain Patten, an officer of the Army
arrived at Homerville, with fourteen members of the C.C.C. from
Jacksonville, Florida, and erected a tent on the present campsite. On June
2, two hundred enrollees under the command of Captain Earle A. Johnson, 29th
Infantry, arrived at the location and by sundown all tents were up and the
cots installed, and Company 1413 was off to a "flying start." This company
has remained at its original location, within a stones throw of the town of
Homerville, during its entire existence.

Members of the company have made commendable accomplishment in the
performance of the various work projects under supervision of the Forestry
officials. Among the projects undertaken are: bridge construction,
development of truck trails, and fire breaks, reforestation, fire tower
erection, telephone line construction, and maintenance, and numerous other
worthwhile endeavors.

In the field of sports, Company 1413 has made an enviable record, having
won the championship in basketball, baseball, and football in this district
in 1935, as well as third place in basketball in 1936. A program of
intra-camp sports serves to interest those members who do not take part in
inter-camp activities. Access to an excellent swimming pool, tennis courts,
etc., tend toward the maintenance of high morale of the men.

The educational program is one of comprehensive scope, with special
emphasis being placed on vocational courses. During the past year it has
grown to such an extent that three buildings are necessary to accommodate
all the classes. There are now two W.P.A. instructors, in addition to ten
others offering instruction in academic, commercial and vocational subjects
to over 90 per cent of the enrollees. Present plans call for an additional
building to house an enlarged reading room and library. Hundreds of free
books have been secured through the efforts of the present commanding
officer, Captain J.D. Giddens, and the Adviser H.E. Knight. The camp
newspaper, the Palmetto Post, is considered one of the best in this
district.

The relationship between the men of the company, and the citizens of
this community has been of the highest type. The co-operation between the
two groups has proved mutually helpful, affording the members of this
company advantages seldom enjoyed by those located in camps remote from such
communities.

Since it was organized, this company has been under the command of the
following officers: Captain Earle A. Johnson, 29th Infantry; Captain Hugh
B. Dudley, 328th Infantry; First Lieutenant Clarence S. Miller, Captain
Harvey L. Burnette, 327th Infantry; First Lieutenant W.S. Heron, Captain
Jerome D. Giddens, 325th Infantry.

On March 1, Lieutenant Edward S. Moale, E-V, (S), USNR, relieved Captain
Giddens as Commanding Officer. His assistants when this was written were:
First Lieutenant Joseph T. Hall, Jr., Exchange Officer and First Lieutenant
Abraham H. Center, Surgeon.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

This is irrelevant. The $cifags can simply point to his time as proof that LRH researched the subject of psychiatry from within. Everyone else has no doubt the man was batshit crazy.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

OK, so we learn to our delight that Abraham H. Center [COLOR="Navy"]was indeed at Savannah's St. Joseph Hospital[/COLOR], which someone mentioned above. Also, [COLOR="Navy"]Candler Hospital[/COLOR]. This is from the Biographical Directory of the Fellows and Members of the American Psychiatric Association, edition of 1950.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Isn't she the one who DID say he was insane? I think so.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Yes, but in her 1951 complaint for divorce, Ron The Wife Beater. , she recounts the abuse during their 5 year marriage (the first year of which he was married to both Sara Northrup and Margaret Grubb) and her medical advisors deem Hubbard to be hopelessly insane and should be committed. One would think that if he had recently been in an asylum, that information would be included. Could his asylum stay have happened after the divorce?

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

I'm guessing that he was some kind of outpatient there, unless St Joseph's was actually set up to be a full-on "looney bin" -- ? You can get electroshock and then go back to your house that day, or the next day.

Sara and Hubtard were shacking up there in Savannah, and she was supposedly typing up his ramblings.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

That's possible. I can't find any more information on the "St. John's Hall" psych ward that opened in the 50s, but if there wasn't a facility for psych patients while Hubbard was there, then your scenario is likely. A H Center lived right in that area (17w Gordon St is a little over a block off Drayton St).

The timing is interesting, as Hubbard's letter requesting psychiatric help is dated Oct 15, 1947.

Fishman (yes I know he's not considered a reliable source) also said that Hubbard (as per papers that were supposedly Hubbard's confessions) was a patient in a 6 man ward at Oak Knoll Naval Hospital in 1947, under a Dr. Irving Kutzman, where Hubbard experimented on a fellow patient named McClellan.

I could see Hubbard continuing treatment as an outpatient. I could also see him availing himself of the opportunity to test his loony ideas on other patients, and "feigning" psych problems to get access to patients. And by "feigning" I mean he really needed help, but may have rationalized seeking that help to himself by telling himself that he was after patient access.

I can't find anything on Dr. Irving Kutzman other then fishman's quote. Oak Knoll Naval Hospital (Naval Hospital Oakland) closed in 1996. It opened in 1942, and by 1945 (when Hubbard was there for his war injuries - i.e. ulcer and hemorrhoids) was serving 6000 patients with a staff of 3000.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

From Madman or Messiah interview with Sara Northrup c. 1986:

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

I can remember seeing a request by hubtard to the US navy begging for treatment in one of the FOIA packs, cant remember the contents of the letter though.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

I was told the following conversation, which occurred at dinner, at the home of one of the past President's of George Washington University... his son, is friend of mine, and recounted the following, that Dr Mossell (Phonetic spelling) who was one of hubbard's professors when he was at George Washington University, said: "I went to visit Hubbard when he was in st Elizabeth's Mental Hospital (in Washington DC) raving while in restraints... He thought he was Jesus Christ."

I also have a tape, but do not have permission to web it...

and, I dont believe Hubbard was that smart, he was a writer, a thief, and a conman - but I dont believe he was as dumb as his grades at GW University make him out to be... in my opinion, the only way to get grades THAT bad are if you do not show up for classes....

perhaps because he was in St Elizabeth's...some additional speculations are in this post on WWP LINK and the ones after it.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Per chance did Gerry A run across anything while finding out lrh wasn't who he claimed to be ?

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

His lady, Caroline, and I discussed this a bit ina thread on OCMB a while ago, Im sorry i dont recall the details, just a reference to some clues from Hubbard's lectures... (<There are MANY clues in his lectures - if you consider that putting on a white lab coat and having an inmate call him DOCTOR, got him into the medical Library, which is likely the basis for his claim of being Dr Hubbard...Phd...)

He mentioned a nuthouse... Walnut acres (or similar) in one of his tapes.. there was a facility for long term care that was also used for classified experimentation...Manchurian Candidate style... that was was in Bethesda Maryland.. which also had a nut in its name...., which was a "long term care facility' of St Elizabeth's Mental Hospital in DC

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

And some ex-member told a story about being sent on Mission Orders to Savannah in the early 70's when it was being considered as a location for what they later chose to do in Clearwater...

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

:::::cough Elizabeth NJ cough:::::::

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Hubbard Dianetics Foundation? Why so \_ ?

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Ah yes, this may be the thread whereof you speak; He calls it Walnut Lodge, but it's really Chestnut Lodge.

Savannah... I wonder if HIPAA privacy rules apply to the medical records of deceased persons...

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

thanks for finding that thread and
wow, that link to Chestnut Lodge is super,quite an eye opener, thanks

and re finding records.... Chestnut Lodge was a CIA MkUltra site, (details about that are on the site above) in congressional testimony, years ago, there was a reference to the extraordinary quantity of records about that program that were shredded by the CIA rather that be delivered in response to congressional subpeona's

The finder of THAT smoking gun document if it contains Lafayette RonaldHubbard, will become famous.
And scientology will (again) say "it is all lies"..

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

IIRC the clams think that dropping acid is a fate worse than death per LRH. Maybe he had a bad trip or three? Might explain the eevil psych bugaboo...

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Hubbard's ranting hatred for psychiatry is explained by his having an extreme psychiatric history, perhaps even MkUltra'd, far better than by the 'shore story' he told people (and is repeated by some other ex-members) that he took Dianetics to the psychs and they were NOT impressed by his his "tech" so he was angry...

IMO, He would NEVER have taken it to the psychiatrists, because he was a THIEF and a plagarist, because he stole the ideas for DIAnetics from discarded psychiatric tech described by William Sargant (psychiatrist) in "Battle for the Mind" and his earlier books..

A thief will not try to sell his stolen goods back to the persons he stole them from unless he is a complete fool.

End note: I am starting to believe (more so after reading Frank Olson's story linked from the Chestnut Lodge page) that the whole satanism thing as described by Hubbard's own son in the Penthouse magazine HERE and extensively exposed HERE along with and the satanic/nazi similarities to scientology, may have all been contrived...and "Satanism" was used as a shore story in its own right... to put people off the scent...to (quoted from a chapter about covert hypnosis - "Give the patient a reason for what you are doing".)...Even one of the satanic "churches" is run by a guy that used to be a big shot psychological intelligence operative in the DIA, The Defense Intelligence Agency...whats his name...Lt Col. Michael Aquino, his group split off from the church of satan in 1975 and founded The Temple of $et... .on a huge PDF file buried on his site, he stated his past DIA posting..

------------------

"MindWar-

“From PSYOP to MindWar: The Psychology of Victory”. Co-authored with Colonel Paul Vallely, this [in]famous “thinking paper” examines U.S. Psychological Operations (PSYOP) doctrine as of 1980 and proposes evolutionary and effective changes. "

Excerpt: For the mind to believe in its own decisions, it must feel that it made those decisions without coercion. Coercive measures used by the operative, consequently, must not be detectable by ordinary means."

--------------------


"The best place to hide something is right in front of you"

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Interesting side note -- Tim Leary not only started with some revolutionary theraputic methods using LSD (he's said to have "cured" some horrifically tough cases in as little as one session), he moved on to being a significant player in the startup of a shamanic gnostic movement that began to gain some significant traction -- which would have put him on Hubbard's "enemies list" on two different fronts: Psych and competing "new" religion.

[/derail]

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

can you link me to a version of this I can download and get printed off? U known CCHR happens to be in town here

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

http://www.religio.de/books/lifeti/psych.gif

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

OR MORDOR!!

There wouldn't have even been sanatoriums if it weren't for TB. However, TB was beaten back in the '60s or something and therefore these institutes have been in decline as well.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

You don't get electroshock therapy as an outpatient. I think you need to be admitted to hospital for that as it requires anesthesia and usually a series of treatments over several days.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Quite possible. You connect the dots from the dogma backwards. He wrote "The War" on 18 February 1954. That's 5 years post this, and it was an openly paranoid rant about an "18 year war" between Hubbard and literally THE WORLD! The timing would basically be correct, and with the level of paranoia figure they musta put an elephant suppository size load of something in him. On the other hand, maybe he's pissed off because he was in the control group and everybody BUT him got the good drugs.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

It seems to me that I heard he was a patient in Cuba right after the success of Dianetics (1954?) I recall hearing from Cecil B. DeMill's son after my book came out saying that they had gone to Cuba together and LRH had been hospitalized for psychiatric problems. Treatment there may have been poor leading to (or underscoring) his obsession about psychiatrists killing patients, sticking needles in their eyeballs, etc.
Paulette Cooper

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

No way ?
Way ?
Is that really you Paulette ?

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy : )

How about this we of the internets huh ?

Epic : )

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Interesting point, Paulette. I just noticed this bit from the FBI files. Sounds more than usually paranoid, considering that Fidel Castro had just got out of law school at that point and the place was basically being run by the mafia -- not Communists. Appealing to the military attache for help! This could well be a fruitful avenue of research.

AIRGRAM

[BLACKED OUT] DATED APRIL 17, 1951 AT HAVANA, CUBA. RECEIVED VIA AIRGRAM.

LAFAYETTE RONALD HUBBARD, FOREIGN MISCELLANEOUS. SUBJECT PRESENTLY IN CUBA AND HAS APPEALED TO MILITARY ATTACHE HERE FOR PROTECTION FROM COMMUNISTS. SUBJECT CLAIMS HE OWNS HUBBARD PUBLICATIONS ELIZABETH, NEW JERSEY AND IS AUTHOR OF BOOK QUOTE DIANATICS [sic] UNQUOTE. PLEASE ADVISE BY AIRGRAM OF ANY PERTINENT INFORMATION RE SUBJECT.

RECEIVED 4-19-51 3:11 PM VAM

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Yep. Krazie.

Letter indicates Dianetics founder, baby fled to Cuba
Los Angeles Daily News
Los Angeles News - "Hubbard Flees to Cuba" - 5/1/51

May 1, 1951

Indications that Dianetics founder L. Ron Hubbard, 40, has fled to Cuba with the baby daughter he is accused of kidnapping were contained today in a letter submitted to the court by Mrs. Sara Northrup Hubbard, 25.

Mrs. Hubbard, who is suing for divorce on the grounds her husband is insane and who accused him of having kidnapped their daughter, Alexis, 13 months, last February 24th, presented to Superior Judge W. Turney Fox a letter written by Hubbard to her last April 15th.

The letter was submitted to bolster her request to serve Hubbard with divorce papers by publication since he has not been located for personal service. Judge Fox granted the petition.

This is Hubbard's letter to his wife:

"Dear Sara I have been in the Cuban military hospital and I am being transferred to the United States next week as a classified scientist immune from interference of all kind".

"Though I will be hospitalized probably a long time. Alexis is getting excellent care. I see her every day. She is all I have to live for".

"My wits never gave way under all you did and let them do, but my body didn't stand up. My right side is paralyzed and getting more so. I hope my heart lasts".

"I may live a long time and again I may not. But Dianetics will last 10,000 years-for the Army and Navy have it now".

"My will is all changed. Alexis will get a fortune unless she goes to you, as she would then get nothing. Hope to see you once more. Goodbye-I love you".

Mrs. Hubbard who seeks custody of her little girl, said that Hubbard's Dianetics foundation did a $1,000,000.00 business last year.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Paulette-

Now is your time to not only to comment on threads, but to start your own.

Thank you for your continuing monitoring of this board, but please realize that you now have backup to let your "rest of the story" be heard. We welcome the challenge for you to finally be able to tell the full story of your experience. CoS can't hurt you anymore. There are too many that will take up your cause. Please feel free to "spill your guts".

HELP US WITH THE BENEFIT OF YOUR EXPERIENCE!
What is the next target.

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

If you would kindly lurk more, you'd find out that her entire story has been posted... several years ago.
 Scandal

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

Relyt-

You missed my point. Of course, her story has been posted. It's what alot of Anon's used to become active.

She's the ultimate example of fairgame.

Because of this, her monitoring of this board is very encouraging. I'm sure that she has alot more to say. I just want to her to realize that if she has more to add to her story, and I'm sure that she does, that she can safely add it, because there is plenty of backup to make sure that she is NEVER FAIRGAMED AGAIN!!

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

I think that this is a perfect example of the danger of the quick "lurk more" response. There have been alot of of new posters since the beginning of the year, and I would expect alot more in the near future due to the KESQ coverage. The COS abuses are a very complicated story that we have spent over a year investigating. It took time and research to connect the dots. Why not be more receptive to the new posters obvious ignorance, and encourage their inquisitiveness by providing not just a link, but the reasons that it might be worth reading?

Just a suggestion.
How can we expect people to log onto this board for information, and then ridicule them for not have the insight to undestand how things work?

Re: Was Hubbard a PATIENT in the Savannah Insane Asylum in 1949?

This may be a topic for another thread...but ^^^^absolutely.

That is...of course assuming...we want new posters?